Capdiamont\’s Weblog


More on prop 8, white powder, etc against LDS and other supporters of Prop 8
Saturday 15 Nov 2008, 12:02
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1st a short little blurb that sums up the issues. It wasn’t the Church who donated the money, it was the members who did so. The Church has a right of free speech to speak up on moral issues. Thus no IRS can prohibit it from doing do. People want the tax free status of the churches revoked, without thinking what it would do.

Consider this, for my Marriage, I didn’t have to pay for a space, for the wedding, or reception, nor cleanup, etc. Friends and family helped setup and tear down at the reception.

Also consider the amount of charity work we do worldwide. Many times there at disaster areas with food and other necessities before FEMA.

Kevin Hamilton’s Letter on Proposition 8 and the Mormon Church

Dear Friends,

In the aftermath of the recent election, we may find ourselves oddly on the defensive regarding our support for the Yes on Proposition 8 cause. Our young people have been especially subject to mean-spirited comments by high school friends and teachers. We have nothing to be ashamed of. We did nothing wrong. In fact, we did everything that a civic-minded American can and should do. I have put together a few facts that help me to appreciate our position better. For example:

1. Mormons make up less than 2 percent of the population of California. There are approximately 800,000 LDS out of a total population of approximately 34 million.Mormon voters were less than 5 percent of the yes vote.

2. If one estimates that 250,000 LDS are registered voters (the rest being children), then LDS voters made up 4.6 percent of the yes vote and 2.4 percent of the total Proposition 8 vote.

3. The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (Mormons) donated no money to the Yes on 8 campaign. Individual members of the church were encouraged to support the Yes on 8 efforts and, exercising their constitutional right to free speech, donated whatever they felt like donating.

4. The No on 8 campaign raised more money than the Yes on 8 campaign. Unofficial estimates put No on 8 at $38 million and Yes on 8 at $32 million, making it the most expensive non-presidential election in the country.

5. Advertising messages for the Yes on 8 campaign are based on case law and real-life situations. The No on 8 supporters have insisted that the Yes on 8 messaging is based on lies. Every Yes on 8 claim is supported.

6. The majority of our friends and neighbors voted Yes on 8. Los Angeles County voted in favor of Yes on 8. Ventura County voted in favor of Yes on 8.

7. African-Americans overwhelmingly supported Yes on 8. Exit polls show that 70 percent of black voters chose Yes on 8. This was interesting because the majority of these voters voted for President-elect Obama. No on 8 supporters had assumed that Obama voters would vote No on 8.

8. The majority of Latino voters voted Yes on 8. Exit polls show that the majority of Latinos supported Yes on 8 and cited religious beliefs (assumed to be primarily Catholic).

9. The Yes on 8 coalition was a broad spectrum of religious organizations. Catholics, evangelicals, Protestants, Orthodox Jews, Muslims — all supported Yes on 8. It is estimated that there are 10 million Catholics and 10 million Protestants in California. Mormons were a tiny fraction of the population represented by Yes on 8 coalition members.

10. Not all Mormons voted in favor of Proposition 8. Our faith accords that each person be allowed to choose for him or herself. Church leaders have asked members to treat other members with “civility, respect and love,” despite their differing views.

11. The church did not violate the principal of separation of church and state. This principle is derived from the First Amendment to the United States’ Constitution, which reads, “Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof?” The phrase “separation of church and state”, which does not appear in the Constitution itself, is generally traced to an 1802 letter by Thomas Jefferson, although it has since been quoted in several opinions handed down by the United States Supreme Court in recent years. The LDS Church is under no obligation to refrain from participating in the political process to the extent permitted by law. U.S. election law is very clear that churches may not endorse candidates, but may support issues. The church as always been very careful on this matter and occasionally (not often) chooses to support causes that it feels to be of a moral nature.

12. Supporters of Proposition 8 did exactly what the Constitution provides for all citizens: they exercised their First Amendment rights to speak out

on an issue that concerned them, make contributions to a cause that they support and then vote in the regular electoral process. For the most part, this seems to have been done in an open, fair and civil way. Opponents of 8 have accused supporters of being bigots, liars and worse. The fact is, we simply did what Americans do — we spoke up, we campaigned and we voted.

Hold your heads up high — you did a great job on this most important cause. We will have more opportunities in the future to participate in our democratic process. Let’s remember the lessons learned and do an even better job next time.

These are my personal opinions and thoughts; any errors are mine and in no way reflect official church policy or doctrine.

Thanks,
Kevin Hamilton

Theater felt growing pressure before artistic director quit

Book of Mormon found burning outside Littleton church

Protests over Proposition 8 outcome getting personal


‘Gay fascists’ storm church, attack members

Owner says Prop 8 opponents hacked into LDS site

Scott Proctor of Meridian magazine said the site was hacked into early Nov. 5, and its home page was replaced with “horrible, explicit lesbians films placed all over the cover.” Engineers took the site down immediately after the break-in was discovered, he said.

The Hypocrisy of the Tolerance Movement

In the past few days, thousands of people have besieged LDS temples in Los Angeles , Manhattan , San Diego , and Salt Lake . Freeway ramps were closed leading to the Oakland temple because of angry protesters. Two days after the election, fearing for the safety of members, LDS officials had to temporarily suspend services at the Los Angeles temple because of the threatening crowds. More protests at LDS temples are planned and at least one website is calling for the LDS temple in Los Angeles to be a permanent protest site.

Think about this, the free exercise of Religion has been restricted, by those calling for tolerance.

Most egregious was a commercial created to run on election day where two actors, posing as LDS missionaries invade the home of a same-sex couple. They knock on the door, say they are from The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints and tell a lesbian couple “we are here to take away your rights.” They take their wedding rings, ransack the house looking for their marriage license, find it, and then tear it up. They say, “that was too easy, yeah, what should we ban next?” Then the ad says: “Say No to a Church taking over your government. Vote No on Prop. 8”

Of course, this deplorable ad was seeking to incite hatred and fear of a religious minority, but it is ultimately a strike against churches having any say in these vital social issues, and the last line is absolutely chilling for all religious people, no matter who they are, as it seeks to censor their voices. Any church has a constitutional right of expression on political and social issues.

Mormon Temples in Utah, L.A. Targeted With White Powder

LOS ANGELES — Letters containing a suspicious white powder were sent to Mormon temples in Los Angeles and Salt Lake City that were the sites of protests against the church’s support of California’s gay marriage ban.

The temple in the Westwood area of Los Angeles was evacuated Thursday before a hazardous materials crew determined the envelope’s contents were not toxic, said FBI spokesman Jason Pack.

The temple in downtown Salt Lake City, where the church is based, received a similar envelope containing a white powder that spilled onto a clerk’s hand.

Tolerance?

Cross-Bearing [Elderly] Woman Says She Was Attacked by Gay Marriage Supporters, May Press Charges See link for video.

Mormon church condemns gay activists for ‘attacks’

Church leaders released two statements Friday, one saying they were disturbed the church was being singled out for taking a position on the California amendment, the other assailing “attacks” and vandalism of church property by “opponents of Proposition 8.”

“We call upon those who have honest disagreements on this issue to urge restraint upon the extreme actions of a few,” church President Thomas S. Monson said in a statement.

The Utah Pride Center, a gay rights group, put out its own statement calling the powder hoaxes and acts of vandalism “deplorable.”

However, the group said, “It is false to conclude that yesterday’s suspicious package came from gay protesters. Overwhelmingly, gay and allied Utahns have expressed their pain, frustration and commitment to securing rights through peaceful demonstrations and marches.”

The coalition that ran the campaign to defeat Proposition 8 also issued a condemnation Friday.

“The NO on 8 campaign was about civil rights and seeking equality for all Californians. We have said time and again that the Mormon church deserves the same respect as any other religion,” said Ali Bay, a spokeswoman for Equality California, the state’s largest gay rights group.

The FBI is still investigating both cases, spokesman Juan T. Becerra said, noting that it’s a crime to release a substance to threaten harm and stoke public fear.

“Even if you send a hoax threat, you’re still in violation of federal law,” Becerra said.

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16 Comments

Guess what, in spite of all the misinformation you’ve posted here, the good news is:

“Civil rights groups filed a petition with the California Supreme Court to stop the enactment of Proposition 8 because it would mandate discrimination against a minority group and did not follow the process required for fundamental revisions to the California Constitution.

In the petition, the Asian Pacific American Legal Center, Mexican American Legal Defense and Educational Fund, Equal Justice Society, California NAACP and the NAACP Legal Defense and Educational Fund, Inc. argue that in order to protect the fundamental rights of all Californians, a higher standard is required to overturn the right to marry. Minority communities cannot be stripped of their fundamental rights by a simple majority vote.

“We would be making a grave mistake to view Proposition 8 as just affecting the LGBT community,” said Eva Paterson, president of the Equal Justice Society. “If the Supreme Court allows Proposition 8 to take effect, it would represent a threat to the rights of people of color and all minorities.”

This is what happens when people try to write church-funded discrimination into law.

Comment by VoiceofReason

Fascinating – yet another example of a supporter of Proposition 8 who’s not got the courage of their convictions.

Comment by jesurgislac

[…] (Update: other examples of the Yes-on-8 crew lacking the courage of their convictions here and here: further examples […]

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Voice of reason, no sense. Misinformation? These are real articles, of stuff that has really happened. Church funded? No, that is a lie by homosexual supporters. It as I have said before, my church didn’t fund it, only the members did. So no IRS violation.

05:26: Seems as though you are condoning the sending of white powdered laces envelopes, beating up of prop 8 supporters, burning of a Holy book, vandalism of Churches, etc.

Then to say I don’t have courage? That is why I speak out against these atrocities.

This prop has given me the courage to speak up. It is time to fight.

Comment by capdiamont

Cap, as you know, I totally disagree with you on Prop. 8. Having said that though, I hate the intolerance that some people are showing back.

Comment by Kym

http://www.HumboldtHate.blogspot.com

Comment by Against Hate in Humboldt

These are real articles, of stuff that has really happened. Church funded? No, that is a lie by homosexual supporters. It as I have said before, my church didn’t fund it, only the members did. So no IRS violation.

Yes, I assume the First Presidency must have taken some seriously good tax advice on that one.

05:26: Seems as though you are condoning the sending of white powdered laces envelopes, beating up of prop 8 supporters, burning of a Holy book, vandalism of Churches, etc.

Seems as though you are making stuff up spontaneously to try and silence me, aren’t you? Please quote me saying anything that you have just claimed I said, or take it back and continue a discussion on the issues.

Then to say I don’t have courage?

Courage of your convictions. Like many other LDS-blogs I have been reading, the members of the Church of Latter-Day Saints are complaining endlessly that they’ve been “singled out” and that the LGBT community is protesting their support of Proposition 8. (And picking out a tiny group of incidents and claiming they’re representative of the whole – ignoring the large, peaceful, and legitimate rallies and boycotts going on.)

Yet if the LDS Church and members had the courage of their convictions, there’d be no complaints about being singled out. We’d be hearing a proud “Yes, we stopped you from getting married in California!” But we’re not. We’re hearing a lot of whining about how it’s not fair, and LDS members were only 2% of the vote and only raised about $20M and there were lots of other people too….

Really, either be decently ashamed and apologize, or show the courage of your convictions and say outright that you’re not.

Comment by jesurgislac

Back again, with another blog?

Seventy to Eighty percent of the donors for Prop 8 are members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.

“In the end, Protect Marriage estimates, that as much as half of the nearly $40 million raised on behalf of the measure was contributed by Mormons.”

as in almost 50%, not 70% to 80%.

Comment by capdiamont

If you didn’t get the hint before, I’m not ashamed, and will not apologize.

“Seems as though you are making stuff up spontaneously to try and silence me, aren’t you? Please quote me saying anything that you have just claimed I said, or take it back and continue a discussion on the issues.”

It is by what you didn’t say. I listed all these incidents, to note this is becoming deadly serious. Yet it is all trivial to you. White powder is usually taken as Anthrax. It is a DEATH THREAT.

You claim to be on the side of wanting equal rights, yet those who do not have their head in the sand, can see this unequal treatment. So why not bring it up? Think about it, the no side raised more money, yet lost. The LDS are only about 2% of California population, and not every LDS voted for it, one example, who I consider a great person, in this comment thread, didn’t vote for it. The Catholic is about 30% of California population. Where did the difference come from? It is the voters that matter, and for the 2nd time, voted down same sex marriage.

Comment by capdiamont

If you didn’t get the hint before, I’m not ashamed, and will not apologize.

And yet, you are complaining about the LDS Church being “singled out”, as if this was something to be ashamed of.

It is by what you didn’t say. I listed all these incidents, to note this is becoming deadly serious. Yet it is all trivial to you. White powder is usually taken as Anthrax. It is a DEATH THREAT.

Yes. But my comment said nothing about that, did it? Nor indeed does any reputable news source claim that the two incidents of envelopes of white powder are shown to have anything to do with the LDS Church’s support of Proposition 8, so you’re kind of jumping the gun, aren’t you?

Further: the LDS Church support of Proposition 8 was directly inspired by an official letter from the Quorum of the Presidency, and official pressure from the church leadership on bishops to organise anti-marriage action in their wards, as well as fundraising. This clearly, hugely contributed to getting Proposition 8 passed, and it was organised by the LDS Church, it was not spontaneous individual action. Yet the LDS Church members who supported Proposition 8 certainly appear to be hugely ashamed of this concerted, organised effort by their church, which raised so much money and did so much – because they keep complaining that they’re being “singled out” as Prop8 supporters.

By contrast, if it is discovered by police investigation that the two white powder envelopes were sent to the two Temples by someone who was angry that Prop8 passed, there will be strong condemnation of this action across the board by the LGBT community and LGBT equality groups. I don’t know who sent those two envelopes – but I would bet my house on it not being a concerted, organised, community group action, but rather one individual who’s crossed the line.

Comment by jesurgislac

The U.S. government crossed a VERY serious line with PROP 8.

This “proposition” threatened children’s sense of safety and belongingness in California. Children’s safety.

Regardless of THIS particular fight, there are way too many fights on way too many fronts for us to conquer piecemeal. The Time is Now – DRAW A NEW LINE in the sand and demand from President Obama and our representatives FULL EQUALITY.

Equality Is Simple When You Simply Include Everybody.

What? Not detailed enough for the lawyers?

OK, we can list repealing DOMA, repealing DADT, include transgender in the ENDA Bill, allow adoption of abandoned children, equality in immigration issues, recognize our hate crimes as such, equal family/children rights……….whew! See what I mean?

We are EQUAL SOULS in HUMAN BODIES. Could we please STOP discriminating due to the genitalia attached? Plumbing will determine each civil right?! Any separation from the pack is ultimately due to gender (and/or gender roles & stereotyping), and that is SEXISM. I cannot marry Bob because I am the “wrong” gender; if I were a woman I could marry Bob. SEXISM.

And I cannot stress ENOUGH how my own suffering from Marriage Inequality is NOT the reason for wanting or needing equality. I am not something to focus on. But my story, and the stories of countless other Americans desperately need to be addressed in this civil rights struggle.
Marriage laws were put in place many years ago in order to PROTECT individuals and their FAMILIES; if they were NOT necessary they would not exist (for heterosexuals). When these laws are NOT in place for ALL OF US, horrible, horrible suffering occurs. My WEBSITE has many examples.

So Americans want to continue denying us what they have already deemed as essential. And many people want us to WAIT…2….5……10…….20……..30 YEARS, depending on the “civil right”, for what WAS and IS our birthright.

I personally have a HUGE problem with that. I cannot wait. I will not wait.

Will you join me on Wednesday, April 15th, 2009, and help me inform the government that WE are eager to be included in the federal tax base as
soon as THEY include us in society’s laws? My 5-year-old students could understand this concept: EQUAL = EQUAL

As Americans can’t we agree that there are MANY other important issues to address (like the Economy, Education, Health Care, Poverty & Homelessness, Iraq/Afghanistan…all of these are related), and solving THOSE problems is more urgent than having “Equality Issues” TIE UP THE
COURTS for another 30+ years? We will NOT go away.

You keep procreating; we keep popping out. Sorry.

Our representatives have spent years inventing 4-letter words (DOMA, DADT) to restrict us, deny us, demoralize us, and harm our beloved families and children. Enough is enough.

NO MORE. NO MORE.

====================================
The National Equality Tax Protest
– Wednesday, April 15th, 2009 –
====================================

Comment by johnbisceglia

And yet, you are complaining about the LDS Church being “singled out”, as if this was something to be ashamed of.

Your assuming I’m ashamed of it being singled out, or it is something to be ashamed about. Rather I think it is shameful to single out a group to attack.

You complain that I’m trying to silence you, yet you complain about the Church speaking out. In essence, you want to silence us.

Yes. But my comment said nothing about that, did it? Nor indeed does any reputable news source claim that the two incidents of envelopes of white powder are shown to have anything to do with the LDS Church’s support of Proposition 8, so you’re kind of jumping the gun, aren’t you?

Your right all these hate filled messages, burning book, vandalism, white powdered , happens all the time. NOT. No, it doesn’t. The incidents have sharply increased. I have never heard of a book being burned before, nor any white powdered envelopes before. It is like your ignoring the hate coming from your side, and will not denounce it, and thus defuse it, until it is “proven” and too late.

I have heard of people talking that it would be good to burn down our buildings. So I doubt there would be “strong condemnation of this action across the board by the LGBT community and LGBT equality groups.”

I don’t know who sent those two envelopes – but I would bet my house on it not being a concerted, organised, community group action, but rather one individual who’s crossed the line.

I agree, “concerted, organized, community group action”, however if you stir enough people up, there will be more and more of these individuals. Furthermore, people in a group, get stirred up enough, to form a rioting mob. Weather nor not it is concerted, organized doesn’t matter. We have seen the beginnings of that in the LA area after Prop 8 had passed.

Comment by capdiamont

Your assuming I’m ashamed of it being singled out, or it is something to be ashamed about. Rather I think it is shameful to single out a group to attack.

I thought you supported Proposition 8: in which case, you’re just fine in principle with singling out a group to attack.

You complain that I’m trying to silence you, yet you complain about the Church speaking out. In essence, you want to silence us.

That’s an interesting perspective. I point out that the Church is complaining about being “singled out” as responsible for fighting for Proposition 8, as if they’re ashamed of what they did yet don’t have the decency to apologize for it. You regard this as trying to “silence” the Church. Is the LDS Church so easily silenced that merely pointing out that they’re behaving as if they were ashamed of what they did would silence them?

Your right all these hate filled messages, burning book, vandalism, white powdered , happens all the time. NOT.

So it just happened right after the LDS Church was so intensively and expensively involved in trying to take the freedom to marry away from Californians? Okay, assuming you’re right, it sounds like this handful of incidents may be coming from either a tiny number of individuals who are so outraged by what the LDS have done to them that they’re crossing the line of acceptable protest – or from people who hate Mormons and see this as a good excuse to attack them. Until we have actual facts, it’s impossible to know.

Either way: not comparable, either in scale or in kind, to the organized attack on equal rights in California that the LDS Church orchestrated and is now acting ashamed of.

I have heard of people talking that it would be good to burn down our buildings. So I doubt there would be “strong condemnation of this action across the board by the LGBT community and LGBT equality groups.”

Well, when we find out who was responsible, we’ll see, won’t we?

I agree, “concerted, organized, community group action”, however if you stir enough people up, there will be more and more of these individuals.

Like homophobic attacks on individual LGBT people after concerted, organized religious attacks on the LGBT community? Yeah. Waiting for your condemnation of that. Probably waiting a long time for that.

Furthermore, people in a group, get stirred up enough, to form a rioting mob. Weather nor not it is concerted, organized doesn’t matter. We have seen the beginnings of that in the LA area after Prop 8 had passed.

Stick to the facts. One book was burned: two envelopes of white powder delivered. We don’t know yet who did any of these things. No riots took place, only organized, peaceful rallies outside places that had been used for political work to support Proposition 8.

Comment by jesurgislac

“no riots took place”

Gay Marriage Ban Sparks Gay Rioting In California Hardly peaceful.

Either way: not comparable, either in scale or in kind, to the organized attack on equal rights in California that the LDS Church orchestrated and is now acting ashamed of.

Oh I see it is ok for the hateful response to the
Church, but not ok to work towards to put back in, what was the only type of marriage allowed.

I condemned the simple act of taking signs, you assume I don’t condemn all other acts?

Comment by capdiamont

Gay Marriage Ban Sparks Gay Rioting In California Hardly peaceful.

Dude, you’ve got one protester jumping on top of a police car, and to you that’s a riot? Where do you live, Dellview, North Carolina?

Oh I see it is ok for the hateful response to the Church, but not ok to work towards to put back in, what was the only type of marriage allowed.

What happened was that the LDS Church objected to same-sex couples being able to get married, not to any change in the “type of marriage”. Marriage legislation did not change in California: only the freedom of some couples to marry who had been banned.

The LDS Church worked to take away other people’s civil rights. I think anger and outrage are perfectly justified at that. But I also think that if the LDS Church had the courage of their convictions, they wouldn’t be complaining that they’re being singled out as instrumental in taking away these civil rights. Certainly if Proposition 8 had failed, the people who worked for “No on 8” wouldn’t be whining like the LDS Church that they were being “singled out”. They’d be proud, because they would have known they accomplished something grand.

That’s not how the LDS Church is behaving about their accomplishment.

Comment by jesurgislac

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